The idea of selling software has always appealed to me... the problem is that it can cost big bucks to hire a developer. That's why I started doing some research into alternate methods of selling software without having to actually develop it myself.

During the course of my research, I came across the IBSoftShop run by Joe E. Clayton, an ex-NASA engineer turned software entrepreneur.

The basic concept, according to the sales page, is that it's a 'software franchise.' In other words, they develop exclusive software, provide the payment system (through PayPal) along with professionally written sales copy, and you purchase rights to sell the software at 100% profit.

Although I recognized that the IBSoftShop was really aimed at newbies at internet business, it had lots of software titles, ebooks, videos, etc. and I though it might be a nice way to actually offer software along with my other digital information products... I thought it might be an easy way to expand my product line without all the work.

Although it did sound a little too 'hypey' to actually be legitimate, what really tipped the scale and convinced me to give it a try was the other person involved with the project... Ron Hutton.

I've been a subscriber to one of Ron Hutton's marketing ezines for quite some time and he seemed like a pretty decent guy... certainly nothing shady-appearing about him. I guess I figured that if he was involved with the project it must be on the up and up... So I gave it a try.

Keep in mind as you read on that the setup fee was $297 and the monthly fee was $37 per month as the time I purchased it.

The Great Wait Begins...

On October 28, 2005 (Friday) I purchased my very own IBSoftShop. After making my purchase through PayPal, I was forwarded to a strange webpage where I was asked to fill out a licensing agreement with my name, phone, etc. No problem, I filled out the information and hit the submit button expecting to be forwarded to another page where I could specify my domain name and get other information on how to get started...

Nope. I got sent back to the initial sales page.

So I checked my email. All I got was a text copy of the software agreement I had submitted and my PayPal receipt.

Okay, I'm thinking this isn't a very professional or slick interface so far... but maybe it will get better. Now I just have to wait for them to process my order and get my IBSoftShop set up and I'll be up and running.

So I waited. Monday rolled around and I expected to hear something from Joe Clayton or one of his employees.

Well-- it was Halloween after all. Maybe they all took the day off.

Tuesday rolls around -- November 1st -- so I decided to send the email below:

Hi, I purchased one of the IBSoftShops on October 28th, filled out the Digital SoftShop Agreement (below) also on the 28th, and still haven't heard anything back from you regarding my purchase. This email address isn't filtered, so I'm certain that isn't the problem. I'm anxious to get started selling... when will my IBSoftShop be available? Regards, Chris **email footer deleted**

Within about 20 minutes I got the reply below (I thought things were looking up!)

Hi Chris, I received your note. Thanks for sending it. I’m copying Jim and Nena at Tiger Investigations on this reply as I need their input before I can set up your site. Jim and/or Nena, can you please tell us what the current status is for Chris Yate’s SoftShop? Chris, we’ll be back in touch soon. Best Regards, Ron Hutton SuperSite & IBSoftShop Manager - Team Leader support(at)ibsoftshops.com

Whoohoo! Now we're cooking with gas!

Ooops! I spoke too soon. Here's my next email two days later:

Hi Ron, Two days later and I still haven't heard from anyone except the message you sent below. Wasn't I supposed to be able to have my own domain? No one's asked me what I want for that either. I've been doing business online for a long time and I really like the idea of the SoftShop... but so far your customer service stinks. Still waiting, Chris

Ron's reply a couple of hours later:

Hi Chris, I understand what you’re saying and this isn’t typical. I think that you’ll be pleasantly surprised when we get rolling. I’m copying Jim and Nena again on this message. Jim and/or Nena, would you please provide and update for Chris Yates on the status of his SoftShop. Copy me also on your reply please. Chris, it shouldn’t be much longer. There’s a fair amount of “manual labor” that needs to take place behind the scenes to get these sites set up. Best Regards, Ron Hutton SuperSite & IBSoftShop Manager - Team Leader support(at)ibsoftshops.com

Okay... still waiting. I've set up a lot of websites, so I'm not quite sure what kind of "manual labor" that Ron's referring to that would prevent the people responsible (Presumable Jim or Nena) from actually contacting me and letting me know what's going on... but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I actually see the end product.

On November 3rd. (One Full Week After Ordering) I received the message below. Keep in mind that the "xxx's" replace sensitive information.

Subject: Welcome Chris, Ready to start setting up you SoftShop? Hi Chris, Congratulations and Welcome to IBSoftShops! We're very happy to have the opportunity to work with you. IBSoftShop managers have private managers-only access to the IBSoftShop Academy where we provide a broad range of help and training resources. This is where we're going next. Please follow the action plan outlined below so that we can get your IBSoftShop up and running as quickly as possible. There are a number of things that require your attention and they are explained on the follow manager's area pages. Your IBSoftShop's IP address is: 69.44.15.198 Transformed into an URL, it's: http://69.44.15.198 (don't use www. or .com) The next thing that you'll want to do is register a "crazy name" domain, set up URL forwarding and edit your PayPal website payment preferences. The username and password for each of the following pages is: Username: xxxx Password: xxxx You'll find info on "crazy names" here: http://www.ibsoftshops.com/xxxx Info on URL forwarding is here: http://www.ibsoftshops.com/xxxx Info (video) on PayPal website payment preferences is here: http://www.ibsoftshops.com/xxxx After completing the above "to-do" list, please update your SoftShop manager's license for us so that we have a record of your "crazy name" domain. You can make any other additions / changes to your license at the same time. Instructions are provided here: http://www.ibsoftshops.com/xxxx Also be sure to read the "News" page in the SoftShop manager's area (AKA "the Academy"). The above pages are in the manager's area and you'll see a link to the news page near the top of each page. You might want to review the various updates in reverse order (oldest to newest). You may also be receiving assistance in the future from Donna Maher. Donna is helping us with support for the IBSoftShops program and the email address that she's using is ibsoftshopteam(at)affordasoft.com. This is just a FYI, in case you hear from Donna instead of me. Chris, if you have any questions or if I can be of further assistance, don't hesitate to send me a note. Best Regards, Ron Hutton SuperSite & IBSoftShop Manager - Team Leader support(at)ibsoftshops.com

Okay, now I'm thinking this looks a little more promising and I click on the links in the email to get started. I've already waited a week and I'm anxious.

Finally the Wait is Over... But What A Disappointment!

I clicked on the quickstart page to get my little software shop up and running. As I'm reading through the material, the first thing I realize is that I don't really have my own domain...

I have an IP address only. In order to have an actual domain, I have to register my own domain name and have it redirect to the IP address provided.

On top of that, you can't use 'masked cloaking' with this system because it doesn't work with the PayPal payment system.

Masked cloaking means that when you click on the domain it forwards to another domain or IP address, but it still looks like the original domain. In other words, if you use masked cloaking and you click on the domain chickeneggs.com you could be forwarded to any other domain or IP and you would still only see chickeneggs.com in the browser.

Because this system can't use masked cloaking, if you click on your registered domain, you'll be forwarded to the IP address provided without any domain name associated with it.

Why is this a big deal?

It's a big deal because a naked IP address like http://69.44.15.198 hurts your credibility... especially when you're trying to sell something.

Then I noticed something else even more problematic...

There were only two products available in my IBSoftShop! So I sent the message below:

Hi Ron, I'm glad to finally have a IBSoftShop and working on my URL forwarding, contact information, and the other steps outlined below... no problem. I am confused on one thing though... there are only two software titles in my SoftShop (DeadEasy Ebook Maker and SuperLinker). I understood there to be several software, ebook, audio, and video titles within the IBSoftShop. I feel a little silly asking. Have I missed something? Chris

Here's Ron Hutton's reply:

Hi Chris, You haven’t missed anything, but Joe will be adding more products to all of the sites over the course of the next 3 or 4 days. I don’t even know what the new products will be yet. I can’t wait to see. If I can be of further assistance, just shout. Best Regards, Ron Hutton SuperSite & IBSoftShop Manager - Team Leader support(at)ibsoftshops.com

Okay, but I though there was supposed to be lot's of stuff to sell, not 3 or 4 things for a $297 setup fee and $37 per month...

Okay Ron... I understand that Joe ads a new product each month. But here's what I don't get... Several of the SoftShops, including wareareyou.com, affordasoftsupersite.com, and software-supersites.net have family products, home and garden products, etc. on their sites. They have exactly the same products set up the same way as if they are part of the SoftShop, not set up by the individual managers. Those are the types of products that are most targeted to my customers and the reason I purchased a SoftShop. Don't any of those products come with the SoftShop? In addition, the concept of the SoftShop was introduced by Joe in 2003... with one new product promised each month, there should be more than 2 products in my SoftShop. Can you please clarify all this for me? I appreciate your time and hate to be a pain on this. Chris

Hi Chris, To answer your question about the difference between an IBSoftShop and a Software SuperSite, there are two main differences... 1) The size and scope of the sites. IBSoftShops are very much a miniaturized version of the SuperSites. The original plan for the SoftShops was that they’d start out with about 12 software products created by Joe Clayton. Whereas the SuperSites already have 300+ products included, most of which are products that have been acquired with resale rights. The SoftShops actually launched in early September. Admittedly, Joe’s a little behind with product additions, but he’s been faced with some very serious life issues recently with the failing health and death of his father. More new products will be added very soon. At some point a few months before the SoftShops launched, Joe decided that the best plan of action would be to start with a few products, let the site managers get accustomed to how everything worked, and then continue to add products one at a time. Otherwise, when site managers are presented with a dozen or more products to promote, there’s a high potential that they’ll never focus enough energy on one thing to make it profitable. We’ve seen this happen repeatedly with the SuperSites where managers have over 300 products available and they struggle to fixed their sites on one or two products and follow through with their marketing. All products included on the IBSoftShops will also be added to the SuperSites. My site, WareAreYou.com (http://www.wareareyou.com), is a Software SuperSite. My site, Squishy-Shop.com (http://www.squishy-shop.com), is an IBSoftShop. 2) The upfront and ongoing cost. The cost of a manager's license for an IBSoftShop is currently $297 and the monthly fee is $37. The cost of a manager's license for a Software SuperSite is $997 and the monthly fee is $87. If you’re interested in possibly “upgrading” to a Software SuperSite, I’d encourage you to send Joe a note. I’m sure that he could find a spot for you. If I can be of further assistance, just shout. Best Regards, Ron Hutton SuperSite & IBSoftShop Manager & Team Leader support(at)ibsoftshops.com

Oh man... what a disappointment!!! I totally didn't see that one coming! And Ron still really didn't address the fact that there were only two products in the softshop -- except to make excuses for Joe.

So what do I do now?

I've already spent nearly $300 dollars on this sucker... I should at least try to make it work.

So I registered a domain name and forwarded it to the IP address provided... as the SoftShop instructs.

Then I began going through the process of setting up a contact page -- which produced a very ugly page. To set up a contact page with the IBSoftShop, you have to download and install a piece of software, fill in the blanks (Your contact information), and then the software saves your contact page for you. Then you have to send the page to the support people for them to upload it onto the server. A very convoluted process!

Alternatively, you can send them a special request for access to ftp into your IP and upload the contact page yourself (as well as any 'additional' pages you may want to add). This is the option I chose... knowing how long it took to actually set up this IBSoftShop, I didn't want to wait another week for my contact information to appear.

So I sent in my ftp request and waited. In the meantime, I ran through the payment process in the IBSoftShop to make sure that I would be paid for sales correctly... good thing I did because Joe Clayton's PayPal email address was still in my softshop.

I sent the email below to get this problem fixed (I xxx'd out my email address to avoid harvesters):

Hi Ron, I'm sorry to bother you again. The PayPal address hasn't been changed on my SoftShop yet. I put it in originally as chris@xxx.com and then I put in another license agreement today for the URL forwarding and listed as sales@xxx.com. Either address is okay, but I can't begin promoting until it gets changed from freesoftwarewizard(at)yahoo.com (Joe's address). I thought it would be changed at setup, but I must have missed something again... sorry! Can you give me any idea when the PayPal address will be corrected? Thanks for your time Ron! Chris P.S. Is there someone else I should be contacting for this piddly stuff, or are you 'da Man'?

Here's the message I got back a couple of hours later... I guess Ron was tired of dealing with me.

I've highlighted parts of the passage that you should note below:

Hello, Chris, First, I'd like to introduce myself, I work closely with Ron Hutton, Joe Clayton & Nena Jones as part of the IBSoftShops Support Team. My name is Donna Maher and I am a SuperSite owner, so I am familiar with this business and I appreciate the chance to help you. Your SoftShop Manager's area login info'rmation is below my signature along with a few other helpful li'nks you may need for reference. Part of your query is answered in my general news section below (about Joe's paypal address) and regarding the financial end, like when you change yours and resubmit your license, is in the hands of Nena Jones at Tiger, who handles that end of things. She updates your files & so forth... I'm not sure how long that takes. But..... she will do it. You can promote right away, however, because if your paypal addies are both working ones, one of them is already coded into the superlinker product. The "joe" addresses are coded to the specific softshop so you always get your commission for those deadeasy sales. I hope I'm making sense. F.Y.I. ::: General Soft Shop News ::: Many have asked about ways to get your contact pages updated - and now we have the answer: Go here: http://www.ibsoftshops.com/xxx and learn all about it. Later on, you will be informed as to how to add prod'ucts to your database, too, should you wish to and have the expertise to do so. You will receive an ftp agreement to sign and return to us if you want to ftp products to your softshop, or make changes to your site. There is another page explaining all of this in the manager's area. We will keep you updated as things progress, but please be sure that you read *everything* in the manager's areas; new information is added regularly. In case you didn't receive the note from Joe about it, the Dead Easy soft'ware is an aff'iliate prod'uct that is in Joe's paypal name, not in yours, and so you will get a healthy % of the prof'its but the Super Linker paypal in'come is *all yours*, as will be the case with most of the future prod'ucts Joe will be developing and adding to your SoftShop. We'll also keep you posted on additions to your shop, and there is no set schedule for these additions. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know. Best Regards, Donna Maher Donna Maher RN/Webmaster/Infopreneur SuperSite Manager & IBSoftShop Team Support & Member i-Cop http://donnamaher.us/i-Cop/ **The rest of her lengthly footer advertising was deleted**

WHAT???

It clearly stated on the sales page that none of the products were affiliate products and that they were all 100% commission!

I think it would be fair to say that I was HOPPING MAD by this point.

PayPal to the rescue... NOT.

Joe Clayton made it quite clear that the setup fee was non-refundable, so I decided to not even bother contacting him about it. I purchased through PayPal, so I should be able to get my money back through their dispute resolution... after all, I had been misled and the product had been misrepresented, right?

So I filled out the dispute form with the information below (Keep in mind that space was limited on the form and I expected to be contacted for further clarification.):

The seller has misrepresented their product and should therefore return the setup fee for the service. They state the following on their website at: www.ibsoftshops.com: "This is NOT an Affiliate Site. It's your own Complete Business where ALL the money from EVERY sale is paid immediately into YOUR Paypal account. YOU keep all the profits for as long as you pay your low monthly license fee." "The IBSoftShop sites and products are owned and maintained by us. In a similar way to a franchise, you are the operator of your own site, and pay us a Once-Only Set Up fee and a low monthly license fee. But you keep ALL the profits, and you can upload your own products too. So we make a small profit from a number of site operators, and you make a profit from the sales on your site. We do NOT take any royalties or commissions from your sales - you keep it ALL!" When they didn't set up the website product that I was supposed to receive with my PayPal email address so the money from my sales would go directly into my account and left Joe Clayton's email address intact, I sent an email to ask when it would be changed. This is what I received as an email answer: "...the Dead Easy soft'ware is an aff'iliate prod'uct that is in Joe's paypal name, not in yours, and so you will get a healthy % of the prof'its but the Super Linker paypal in'come is *all yours*, as will be the case with most of the future prod'ucts Joe will be developing and adding to your SoftShop." This is in direct violation of the terms that I purchased this product under. Although their licensing agreement states that the setup fee is non-refundable, the licensing agreement states that the fee is $247, I paid $297, therefore the agreement is void. Joe Clayton has completely misrepresented the IBSoftShop. I respectfully request a complete refund of all fees paid to Joe Clayton for this product. Thank you for your time, Christine Yates TruSite Inc.

That should do it... when PayPal does their investigation and contacts the seller (Joe E. Clayton, Jr.) for a rebuttal, they'll find that the product was indeed misrepresented and I'll get my $297 back, right?

WRONG.

Here's PayPal's answer:

Dear TruSite Inc., PayPal has concluded our investigation of the following Buyer Complaint: Case ID: PP-119-240-718 Transaction Date: Oct 28, 2005 Transaction Amount: -$297.00 USD Seller's Email: freesoftwarewizard(at)yahoo.com Seller's Name: Joe E Clayton Jr Unfortunately, PayPal was not able to resolve this dispute because the item purchased was virtual or intangible. As a result, we have not taken any action against either account at this time. However, this complaint has been noted in the seller's record for future reference. Thank you for your cooperation with our investigation. Thank you, Nina Protection Services Department

You've got to be kidding me!!!

Nope. It was no joke... in fact, PayPal does make mention of the fact that their dispute resolution doesn't apply to intangible products if you read the fine print -- which I never noticed until this point of course. (Click on the link to read more about PayPal's dispute resolution policy.)

So, here I am out of luck and out $300. I decide to take one more stab at getting my money back by contacting all the people involved with the IBSoftShop... including Ron Hutton, Joe E. Clayton, Jr., and Joe Robson (Joe Robson was initially involved with the IBSoftShop).

To All Parties Involved: Please immediately cancel my IBSoftShop account ( 69.44.15.198 ) and I respectfully request a refund of all fees paid on the following grounds: The IBSoftShop was significantly NOT delivered as advertised. On the IBSoftShop website ( www.ibsoftshops.com ) the following is stated: "This is NOT an Affiliate Site. It's your own Complete Business where ALL the money from EVERY sale is paid immediately into YOUR Paypal account. YOU keep all the profits for as long as you pay your low monthly license fee." "The IBSoftShop sites and products are owned and maintained by us. In a similar way to a franchise, you are the operator of your own site, and pay us a Once-Only Set Up fee and a low monthly license fee. But you keep ALL the profits, and you can upload your own products too. So we make a small profit from a number of site operators, and you make a profit from the sales on your site. We do NOT take any royalties or commissions from your sales - you keep it ALL!" When I noticed that the website was set up with Joe Clayton's PayPal email address instead of my own for the DeadEasy product, I sent an email to ask when it would be changed. This is what I received as an email answer: "...the Dead Easy soft'ware is an aff'iliate prod'uct that is in Joe's paypal name, not in yours, and so you will get a healthy % of the prof'its but the Super Linker paypal in'come is *all yours*, as will be the case with most of the future prod'ucts Joe will be developing and adding to your SoftShop." This is in direct violation of the terms that I purchased this product under. Although the licensing agreement states that the setup fee is non-refundable, the licensing agreement states that the fee is $247, I paid $297, therefore the agreement is void. As I'm sure you're all aware, I already filed a dispute with PayPal which was denied because this was deemed an intangible product (something PayPal doesn't handle). You know already now that you have me over a barrel on this, but I'm sure you don't want to hurt the credibility of the IBSoftShop or your personal reputations over a $297 fee that you haven't earned. I'm just a little guy in the online world and losing $297 really hurts my business and family. I respectfully request a refund of the setup fee of $297 and wish to terminate all future business with your company. Regards, Chris Yates

To this day, I haven't heard anything from any of the people involved, nor have I received my money back.

My Conclusions...

Please keep in mind that these are my opinions based on my own experiences detailed above... But I will never knowingly do business with Joe E. Clayton or anyone associated with him. My experiences tell me that he is dishonest and disreputable... you may disagree and are certainly free to form your own opinions.

In addition, I am now highly suspicious of Ron Hutton. If you're not familiar with Ron, he runs several different internet marketing websites and claims to be a:

"Top Sales and Marketing Trainer, having traveled extensively for the last 20 years training sales and marketing professionals all across North America and beyond. Ron is the owner of well over 100 profitable Websites including the Plug-In Profit Toolbox, Plug-In Profit Rotator, GoThrive.com, Internet Marketing Power Tools, and a Software SuperSite from Joe C., WareAreYou.com."

Lastly, I'm also suspicious of Joe Robson. If you're not familiar with Joe, he really became known for his popular website "The Newbie Club." According to his bio on the IBSoftShop:

"Joe Robson (UK) is one the Internet's Top Sales Copywriters, owner of dozens of extremely profitable Websites including the outrageously successful Newbie Club, and author of dozens of successful ebooks and tutorials including WYWS with Sitesell President Ken Evoy. He is also a Founding Member of iCop - the International Council of Online Professionals - dedicated to helping us all avoid being ripped off by Internet scammers."

Joe Robson seemed to have dropped off of most of the IBSoftShop salesletters after I sent him a copy of my request for my money back. This could be a coincidence or it could be that Joe wants to distance himself from a less than honest crowd. I have no idea why he doesn't seem to be part of the crew anymore.

Final Recommendations for IBSoftShop

It's a stinker.

The product doesn't live up to what the salesletter promises:

• You don't actually get your own domain... you get an IP.
• Some of the products are affiliate products, contrary to the sales material.
• You do not get to keep 100% of each sale as promised.
• They aren't producing a new software product each month as promised.
• Their sales copy isn't very good.
• The graphics and layout of the sites is awful.
• There is very little within each IBSoftShop that can be customized.

I could probably go on and on... but what's the point? Save your money.

Latest Updates on This Review...

Apparently this review has gotten someone's attention... Here's a copy of the message I received through my contact form:

Chris: I have sent you 2 very detailed messages regardng your post. The core is that you have chosen to slander individuals who have nothing to do with Mr. Clayton but who CONTRACT to provide some type of service to him. This is wrong, illegal, presents you open to civil liability and with absolutely no "free speech" protectin under the law. I own Tiger Investigations and Tiger Certified. I have no fiscal relationship or ownership or management or control of any kind regarding Mr. Clayton. I do CONTRACT to maintain his database and verify licensing of his clients. We follow his written directions as to our task. Yet, with no contact with us regarding any problem, you have publically labled us as dishonest. We are highly regulated by State and Federal law. maintain extreme levels of liability insurance, provide services to all manner of government entities, law firms and other internet businesses. You labled Ron Hutton, agaiin a contractor doing ONLY what Clayton directs and allows. The same for Donna. Joe Robson has no partnership with Clayton though he did try to promote Softshops to his Newbie group until he realized that Clayton was not fulfilling his promises where-upon he seperated himself and noticed all of his members. Yet, you lable Mr Robson falsely. Chris, I STRONGLY suggest that you withdraw your posting immediately as every day it remains subjects you to liability. If you must speak out, send your comments to Clayton personally. Public postings, true or not, are not protected and subject you to serious and very costly civil liability and I may be the first to file! I would do that in Federal Court in the Southern District of Florida where you would have to come to defend. I am not threatening you, I am simply trying to keep you from making your problems worse than they are. James M Davis, PA xxx xxx xxxx (I removed his phone number as a courtesy)

If you think my experience is unusual, take a look at these messages boards and forums:

Hey, by the way, if you come across a merchant that belongs in The Dog House, let me know with the specifics and they may end up in The Doghouse Report too.

In the meantime, remember to...

"Think outside the flock."


Chris Yates
Internet Marketing Tutor

* All the "@" that were part of specific email addresses within this review and the email messages sited were replaced with (at) as a courtesy to the holders of those email addresses to prevent SPAM.

NOTE: This page is not designed to slam or slander any business, person, or product. The information here is provided as my own opinion. You should view the evidence and supporting facts for yourself and form your own opinion.